Anyone getting jailed for torturing to make false evidence?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:22 pm

So, apparently, the latest buzz is that the Bush administration intentionally advocated torture to forge evidence for the Iraqi war.

I'm pretty sure that this is a despicable war crime by any standard and the people responsible should be punished. But I bet cookies that it's never going to fucking happen, or at least get any traction. I admire your willingness to fight the powah, Spain, but it ain't happening.

This country really pisses me off sometimes.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:24 pm

There is more traction for it now than I thought there would be when the White House started pushing the 'reflection, not retribution' bullshit. Wheels are moving, if slowly. Whether they will remain moving is still an open question, though.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:44 am

I don't think there will be enough public outrage for any kind of prosecution to occur. These are some very powerful people we're talking about, after all. They're not going to go down without a fight, and their colleagues won't turn on them unless they think an all-out populist revolt is going to occur. And most of the American people aren't angry with the Bush Administration because it violated human rights, disregarded the rule of law, or lied to the American people. Bush failed, and that is simply inexcusable.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat May 16, 2009 4:55 am

From what I understand there is a lot of polling to suggest majority popular support for criminal prosecution all the way up to the white house.

But it fails at the same point that impeachment of Bush for the same crimes failed (impeachment which was also popularly supported).

The people in power are very reluctant to do so.

See it would be so very unserious and damaging and difficult to run an impeachment over such trivial matters! Impeachments never happen for anything short of detonating a doomsday device at the earth's core. *cough* Bill Clinton *cough*

It's the usual two faced conservative standard. They will attack anything left of Newt Gingrich with ferocious petty partisan politics, but anything to the left of Newt Gingrich must treat even the worst war criminals of modern American times with kid gloves lest they be rabidly and vocally accused of being impolite, partisan, petty, vengeful, etc...

Just look at the way things are now, even with every bit of fawning "we won't prosecute" that the rather centrist and "bi-partisan" Obama and co have thrown at the altar of the conservative blood gods they are still being accused of performing a partisan witch hunt for petty vengeance against Bush and friends. And endangering the nation, and being treasonous, and being stupid and unserious and incompetent and... etc...

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:24 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:Just look at the way things are now, even with every bit of fawning "we won't prosecute" that the rather centrist and "bi-partisan" Obama and co have thrown at the altar of the conservative blood gods they are still being accused of performing a partisan witch hunt for petty vengeance against Bush and friends. And endangering the nation, and being treasonous, and being stupid and unserious and incompetent and... etc...

And a fascist socialist. Don't forget that one. Because it totally makes... sense...

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:38 pm

Basically, by impeaching a sitting president for saying he did not have sex with a woman when the definition they gave him did not include oral pleasuring, we no longer have that tool to impeach further presidents.

And a majority of Republicans think the torturing was appropriate.

And they still represent half the nation.

So...

-Crissa

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:00 am

*bump*

Never forget.

So anyway, if right-wing Republicans don't like being called fascist, why do they like torture so very much?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:13 am

"The purpose of torture is torture."
-George Orwell

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue May 26, 2009 11:08 am

Caedrus wrote: And a fascist socialist. Don't forget that one. Because it totally makes... sense...

It can be done:

"Here is the socialist way to do things. By the way, if you don't like this plan, we will shoot you. We also might shoot you if you don't hold up your end of the deal in socialism."

But yeah, they're ready to claim Obama is anything they don't like (standard practice).

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue May 26, 2009 11:28 am

I was arguging with some guys complaining about US healthcare being shit by saying they should just do the NHS because that would actually cost less than Medicare and Medicaid alone.

The response was of course that Obama was corrupt and they should abolish all government sponsored care (because they are morons) and then used as evidence some recent change in medicare that effectively prohibited payment for a treatment, because another treatment was cheaper and more effective - but more invasive.

So I said "So your complaining about the government cutting benefits, and your proposed solution is cutting all benefits" and the response was "yes"

I just had to say that.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:04 pm

Koumei wrote:
Caedrus wrote: And a fascist socialist. Don't forget that one. Because it totally makes... sense...
It can be done:

"Here is the socialist way to do things. By the way, if you don't like this plan, we will shoot you. We also might shoot you if you don't hold up your end of the deal in socialism."

But yeah, they're ready to claim Obama is anything they don't like (standard practice).

No, that's totalitarianism. You can be a totalitarian without being a fascist.

Fascism is:

Tribalist.
Authoritarian.
Corporatist.
Despotic.

You literally cannot be a socialist and a fascist. There are lots of ways for you to be a dick, and you can stifle debate and shoot your enemies, but if you respond to class struggle or socialize anything you are by definition anti-fascist.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:12 am

Well I stand corrected.

Hmm, interesting. See, this means that when dickheads use "Ah, but the Nazi Party were socialists! Hitler was a socialist (and thus left wing and on YOUR team, you communist!)" as an argument, they are not only being dicks and using a really idiotic form of argument, they are in fact wrong. I'll make a note to say "No, they called themselves socialists. I could call myself a cheese sandwich but that doesn't make it so. They were totalitarian fascists and they actually opposed real socialism, and liked killing communists (and, granted, just about everyone else)."

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:54 am

Koumei wrote:and liked killing communists (and, granted, just about everyone else)."

Actually their most hated crimes of mass murder were eradication efforts not against "just about everyone" but rather specifically against, jews, homosexuals, unionists, communists, socialists, opposition political parties, and the handicapped.

Disenfranchising and eradicating those exact same groups remains a major wanky fantasy of right wing nut jobs around the world to this day, you can hardly turn over a leaf without finding some "conservative" commenter, blogger, radio host or whatever talking about wanting to "dispose of" all those traitor-commie-homo-jews.

So really who are the real and obvious heirs of some of the nastiest pieces of Nazi doctrine?

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:54 am

Exactly. The Nazis used the word "socialist" to trick working people into thinking they were on their side.

Lich-Loved · Post by **Lich-Loved** » Wed May 27, 2009 6:16 pm

What constitutes a "working person", I wonder?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:22 pm

Lich-Loved wrote:What constitutes a "working person", I wonder?

That's an answerable question as regards fascism. Fascism divides the economy into the following groups:

Heroic Capitalists (yes, this is their actual name)
Super Capitalists
The People
The Leaders
The Enemy

Heroic Capitalists are small businessmen and corporations that are still expanding. Owners of the means of production. And just like in Ayn Rand, they are "heroes" because they hire people to make things and they have vision and shit. Super Capitalists are people who own sizable portions of the economy and extract wealth from society. They are bad, unless they purchase their way into the government in which case they are reclassified as "Leaders" and then they are good and beyond question. And yes, there's an explicit position in the government for corporate lobbyists.

The People is basically everyone who fights in the army, has children, or works for a wage. Everyone else is the Enemy.

Fascism stresses an end to class struggle and cooperation between capitalists and the People. However since the capitalists get to be leaders and other people don't, this really boils down to anyone who attempts to unionize or bargain on behalf of anyone who doesn't own the means of production being reclassified as an Enemy and killed.

-Username17

TavishArtair · Post by **TavishArtair** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:45 pm

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:Exactly. The Nazis used the word "socialist" to trick working people into thinking they were on their side.

Democratic People's Republic...

... of North Korea.

Lich-Loved · Post by **Lich-Loved** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:15 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The People is basically everyone who fights in the army, has children, or works for a wage. Everyone else is the Enemy.

I have heard the term used before but never had a decent definition. I guess I am a "working person" then. It always felt like those that used the term were trying to be exclusive of me when I heard it used.

Thanks for the explanation.

I have another question, but I will post it in a new thread so as not to derail this topic further.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:28 pm

TavishArtair wrote:
Absentminded_Wizard wrote:Exactly. The Nazis used the word "socialist" to trick working people into thinking they were on their side.
Democratic People's Republic...

... of North Korea.

I remember someone noting a direct correlation between the number of buzzwords in your country's name, and how much your country sucks.

Buzzwords include, Democratic, Republic, People...

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:38 pm

Maxus wrote: I remember someone noting a direct correlation between the number of buzzwords in your country's name, and how much your country sucks.

Buzzwords include, Democratic, Republic, People...

...United?

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:43 pm

Koumei wrote:
Caedrus wrote: And a fascist socialist. Don't forget that one. Because it totally makes... sense...
It can be done:

"Here is the socialist way to do things. By the way, if you don't like this plan, we will shoot you. We also might shoot you if you don't hold up your end of the deal in socialism."

But yeah, they're ready to claim Obama is anything they don't like (standard practice).

No, it fucking *can't* be done by definition and you're describing being a dick, not Fascism. Fascism isn't some term they made up for "being a dick leader," Kaelik.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu May 28, 2009 2:50 am

Uh, two points, Caedrus.

1. Yeah, that was pointed out, above. Slowpoke is sloooooow

2. I'm not Kaelik